I've been so excited and pleased to see all the discussion and debate going on around the fandom about the Veil quotes below; I thought some of the comments on the entry here were so good that they should be pulled out:
"...this faith is as challenged by doubts as it is strong." I loved that too, John. I think faith only gets stronger when it is constantly pelted by doubt. I do think you're right, but the ability to pull faith out of that doubt, consistently, and answer (almost immediately) that faith still exists despite them, is a testament to tested and durable faith. I obviously can't answer what she'd hear at the Veil, but she did, in that statement: it sounds like she'd hear at least moderate murmurings. Me? I'd hear them for sure. I'm not as spiritual as Luna, but without fail, for years, whenever mildly wondering whether I had belief in the beyond, the answer formed fully, right before it solidified into words - a sure, knocking, yes.
Hummerhorn:
As for the Tolkien reference: Frodo's journey in the White Ship is not exactly directly to death, but to the earthly paradise - in that place he would be healed and would then *afterwards* die!
Yes, I meant something slightly less literal: wherever he goes, he goes there for good, and Tolkien doesn't follow him there. I'd also say there's an argument for the interpretation that he is heading off to a sort of heaven, but that is apparently at odds with Tolkien's intent.
Kathy says:
I always thought the experiments about death were attempts to call people back from death. From as early as book 1 (with Dumbledore & Harry in teh hospital wing) we know that wizards, just like muggles, are often afraid of death. That many of them, Harry & Dumbledore included, would give anything for one last conversation with a dead loved one.
Now this is interesting - especially with legends of the Resurrection Stone out there. And the idea that they're trying to call people back, to prod the finality of death... that's interesting.
H said:
Interesting about Hermione. Yes, we all know that she's logical to the last; but I felt in Deathly Hallows that she had something of faith or whatever you will call it but that she struggled. She believes in the lasting soul and knows the verse on James and Lily's grave; was scared of pulling back the dead.
I agree; I don't think this means that Hermione is without faith altogether, it's just that her immediate reaction is more rational. That's her impulse, her visceral reaction - go to logic, to reason.
Professor Potter:
I like Jo's interpretation of the voices in the veil. She "thinks" the clarity of the voices correlates to how much you have associated with death and to some extent, how much you fear it. The thing is, even Jo is not certain, she interprets it this way but is not all together sure.
I enjoy that as well. For all the posturing some do about Jo giving out too much info or being didactic in her speaking about her characters, she often phrases things that aren't explicitly in the books in this manner - "I think," "I've always thought," "It seems to me," etc. That strikes me as an open and gracious stance for an author to take, when an author can easily say, "This IS how it is." She really only does that with questions of facts - who did so-and-so marry, did so-and-so go back to school, etc. - as she's imagined them, much less, almost never, with characterizations and wider questions of interpretation and hypothetical. She leaves it quite open for us to imagine ourselves, for us to agree or disagree, which is nice.
A quick moment of clarification, just so no one's disappointed: There's not a lot of canon in the book - there are some moments and discussions of these types of things, but mostly when it got too canon, I had to cut it (which means there are a lot of pieces of information to share here on this site), because this is a book about the phenomenon (which includes fandom, not vice versa). I also was trying valiantly to stay on topic during the interview so didn't ask many followup canon questions; it was squeeze-one-in-while-I-can. The great part is that most published Jo interviews focus, or have focused, on the canon; it's rare that you get to hear Jo reflecting on the phenomenon, which is abundant in the book. I think and hope you'll enjoy that. The canon stuff, mostly, will be here. :)
« All done!
I think Jo Rowling’s idea of tolerance is of a piece with the way she describes the reactions of each character to the Veil. The reactions reflect the differing personalities and experiences of each individual; it is differences that often define us and it is tolerance that permits and makes allowances for truly rounded individual expression.
Doubt also allows the space and freedom needed for individual expression, and enables Jo Rowling to people her world with so many different characters with so many differing viewpoints (spiritual or otherwise). And, isn’t that, after all, one of the reasons we love her books so much? Without Jo Rowling’s ability to empathise, and the importance of tolerance to her worldview we would not have such a varied and stimulating set of characters, both adorable and repulsive.
Hi!
Well, I didn’t intend to say you were totally wrong with what you said about Tolkien. The place where Frodo goes could also be called heaven. One just has to keep in mind that underlying Tolkien’s stories is an elaborate mythological world-view.
Whatever, if you take the quote by Gandalf (LotR, Chapter ‘The White Rider’), you have perfect evidence for your hypothesis. He can not, or does not want to, tell what death is like - it is ‘out of memory and time’, but not the end.
(What’s it like in C.S. Lewis’ ‘The Last Battle’? I don’t remember…)
Very best wishes!
I love our fandom! Because whenever I go and check it, everyone thinks of something that I haven't or I've missed. It's really interesting about the clarity of the voices from the Veil and how Hermione reacts about the Veil.
I wonder about Dumbledore and the Veil. What would happen if he was standing next to it? Would he hear his mother and his sister? And possible even his father?
And, Melissa, I've never noticed Jo saying "I think," "I've always thought," "It seems to me," before. And I've only just remember she said, on Pottercast that she "got a feeling that it was Herpo" the Fowl who made the first Horcrux! Oh, wow! I never noticed that before!!!